"I don't like what Hitler did or represents in the wider scheme of things but I can see the good side he had in terms of helping Germany back from it's collective knees after what happened with Versailles. var part2 = "mansonblog.com"; Manson Blog Proves the Updated Manson File is Fiction! I only decide how I wanna feel. A trip to see the SS might have broken his case apart and make another witness (DeCarlo) useless. If you are saying he is wrongly in jail..As soon as Manson enters the LaBianca house, ties them up, tells them not to worry it is only a robbery he is done as soon as someone is murdered, especially IF he then told the rest to kill them but even if he didn'tThat, my friend, is felony murder and, no, it doesn't matter you, personally, didn't 'intend' to kill anyone. Why? She has been portrayed a number of times in films. Sorry, St. but there is nothing in that video where Krenwinkel talks about HS. And so on.Linda Kasabian is one of the standard knocking posts of TLB. She down plays her Boston arrest by saying she was present where narcotics were present (technically correct) but wouldn't it have been fun to have a few more details for the jury: a fed/state narcotics raid involving 20k worth of LSD? And let's take it a step further - let's only have sympathy for the good looking, and also for those making 100K.Saint, my ass. Manson announced that it was time for Helter Skelter, the inevitable race war after which he and his followers would take control of America. On August 8, 1969, Kasabian and. (One) - wallet - brown plastic with misc. Bobby about mescaline deals and Danny DeCarlo, Pat about not carving WAR on Leno or instructing Leslie to wipe prints {she told the '78 hearing panel there were "15 or 16" things that she would like to correct that Steven Kay got wrong}, Susan about not stabbing Sharon, Leslie about being coerced to "do something," Bruce about the involvement of Tex, Bill Vance & Larry Jones in Shorty's murder and Tex about Susan not stabbing Tate, carving WAR and making Leslie stab Rosemary when she had chickened out ~ none of these things are part of the official record and are not taken on board as being so but the prisoners continue[d] to follow those lines.I'm of the opinion that some of what you get from people who are willing to spill the beans after conviction have to be taken on board if one is going to attempt to understand these people in the aftermath of that point they were at when they committed their crimes. Anyone?Or..to paraphrase others: Life is going to knock you on your ass from time to time. Manson Blog Shines Light on Sassy Bottoms! They were both into really wild shit long before meeting Charlie. People who developed life long drinking and smoking weeds habbits as 15 and 16 year old's with no steady parental influence. It Gets Charlie off the hook. Dec. 3, 1969, Concord, N.H. - Linda Kasabian, right, covers her face as Los Angeles Police woman Joan Simpson escorts her from Court House to start the trip back to California. There is no one inside. "She obviously neglected to mention that she got into Steven Parent's car. Truancy? Just a thought.It brings me back to my favorite question about motive. To cover up that that tried, but failed to kill some other guy or.to keep Straight Satans out of it? A second marriage to an Armenian-American hippie named Robert Kasabian, who she met in Boston, followed in 1967. Saint- I commend you for your deletions. At one point he actually criticizes one of the defence lawyers for calling a witness without having spoken to them.I thought all lawyers know what they want those that matter to hear ! That Tex was the nicest guy. If you really want my opinion- to me it confirms she had no intention of testifying. So even if Kasabian was a Hippy, when pared down to essentials, Hippiedom was hardly presented as an advert for something wholesome. At the time they went over and killed those people because they believed it was for H/S. He said something to the effect that Charlie had a very strong case and that there was pretty much no evidence against him. Hippiedom often talked a good game and tried to build a weighty paradise on a foundation so shallow and flimsy that it cracked under the weight of reality. She witnessed Charles "Tex" Watson shoot and kill Steven Parent as he was trying to exit the property. Susan Denise Atkins aka Sadie Mae Glutz . That's what makes this incident get a 'don't make no sense' label from me. Now that is a great question and I decline to answer on grounds I might further incriminate myself. The two split up, but reconnected when Robert invited Linda to come out to California. There are several occasions where he brings out testimony he doesn't need for a conviction just to make her look good. "Who was watching Sharon Tate?Opinion: "That just don't make no sense". Some things I read even suggested physical abuse. Talks about how she had to put real strength into stabbing a human because it wasn't like cutting meat. Her testimony eventually led to the convictions of Manson, Watson, Atkins, Krenwinkel, and Van Houten. The parts I found 'dramatic' would probably pass many people by. Before goofball goes off on Hollywood did I hear her initially say 'she shouldn't have been there'?I'm inclined to not attach much credence to what Sandy says regarding the murders because she told Robert that she was probably the last to find out about them and didn't do so for a month, even though she claims she felt her group had done them and reportedly told Mary Brunner this. Kasabian saw it as an opportunity to flee the ranch (without Tanya). A British rock band is named after her too. WELL, WELL, there it is folks - the PROOF - the spell of Charlie Manson's "hypnotic" POWER lasts FOREVER, or at least for a few years, depending upon how strongly you got zapped.Thanks Dreath,BTW: the Defense $$$ got had by Daye Shinn. Before I graduated my draft lottery number was 289. Your Resource for the Tate-LaBianca (TLB) Murders. So shove it up your ass. Farflung saidI'm kinda thinkn' there were plenty of precursors, gleefully ignored, or dismissedI think you're right. Dreath saidThat's what makes this incident get a 'don't make no sense' label from meIt made sense to me. Most likely a white man took his place. I think there is a tendency to look at Kasabian's involvement through the lens provided by what we know (or believe or have been told to believe ) from where we sit today. Because certainly the message couldn't be, "sorry you're in jail bud, but we kicked started a global race war last night". But that wasn't what that was about.It isn't so much a case of lying about witness as much as emphasizing anything positive you can find lurking in the scum. One defense attorney after the next, tried unsuccessfully to punch holes through her testimony. But my days of name calling with strangers are over, and I don't want to take any focus off this amazing first time effort from Dreath.:). THUS, when America finally converts to a pure "socialist" society, "money won't mean anything" and "Helter Skelter" will become a moot issue in such a highly progressive society.BTW; It was Charles Manson who said: "money won't mean anything and the people on the bottom will be on the top." I should have found a way and not gone over the fence and run down the hill. SorryDo no such thing ! Crucially, Sadie came out, spoke, watched Tex hit Wogiciech then ran back in again. At the age of 16, Drouin dropped out of high school and got married, and soon after, divorced. lol your insight is interesting reading.. Manson's Lost Girls: Directed by Leslie Libman. You said Kreneinkle said it. Manson Mythos saidWhen one looks at this case, it's almost miraculous that Vincent Bugliosi had a scenario that answered so many important questions and that the answers all seemed to help his case greatlyIs that not what one might expect when, from a number of disparate sources, details and events match up and dovetail ? But you know, there may well be someone in this world that could say the same about any one of us. Manson Mythos saidKrenwinkel never said the motive was Helter SkelterImportant and true.However to dismiss her writing of "Healter skelter" in blood at a murder scene when she'd been told to leave a sign {the night before} ~"you girls know what to write"~ is bias on a grand scale.She herself could not explain, during the penalty phase debacle, why she had written those words. He said something to the effect that Charlie had a very strong case and that there was pretty much no evidence against him. ]MR.KANAREK: Compound, your Honor, leading and suggestive. Mary Brunner: DL# S420794Bruce Davis: DL# 3553216 (Tennessee)Lynette Fromme DL# S145574Linda Kasabian no license is mentioned.Diane Lake DL# 3507331 (temp)Kathern Lutesinger DL# P148000 (Missouri)Charles Manson DL# 2516372Charles Montgomery (aka Watson) DL# A162088Nancy Pitman DL# S4679845 (temp)Leslie Van Houten DL# DD436893 (temp)It only matters in my opinion because it explains why she was chosen. I'm not even convinced 100% she was ever standing on that sidewalk nor am I convinced she wasn't inside the house (yes, I see the inconsistency). I find in life very few things to be binary, black and white {no pun intended}. Matt saidAmazing that the defense lawyers never bothered to check on that tidbit during the months and months duration of the trialDuring the trial, she was asked a number of times about her licence. But if anyone has known for the last 47 years, they ain't been talking. They both got to live out long lives. Equally, the idea of Linda as the heroine of the hour is daft to me even though I think she did the right and good thing by testifying. There wasn't enough room in the car for Cappy to go, so WHY didn't SHE just hitch a ride down to the hamburger stand, slit a throat and steal some fries ? The two split up, but reconnected when Robert invited Linda to come out to California. His closing argument, like the closing argument of any attorney, is just that 'argument'. But wait a minute Grim, Atkins never mentions this event to the Grand Jury, not a word. You leave it to someone else to decide if someone is lying: judge or jury. You'd do it if you were a lawyer ! I wonder if that cabinet they found Manson in was more importantyou know, you had to go through a wardrobe to get there. When he sends Gypsy & Squeaky to Leslie, even though she's implicated him in the murders and helter skeltered all over the shop, she declares she'll do anything he says and doesn't care if she sniffs gas and what she told Marvin Part is never made public {until 2015}. look at there high school pics- they had the same kid of background as me lol. Might be a good post though. Pat, in Guinn's book, presents herself as not wanting the murders to happen, going so far as to say that the following night at Waverley, before anthing happened with Rosemary, she prayed to God, asking him to make the murders stop and since she went ahead and exercised her own free will in participating in carnage and mutilation and God didn't strike her down and stop her, Leslie or Tex, she's not believed in God since that night.And she has a problem with Linda presenting herself as not being a willing participant.As a side issue, if Linda hadn't been at the car when they arrived at it after Cielo's action, would they have just driven off and left her ? That the motive for these seven horrendous murders was not money, it was not burglary or robbery. Her parents divorced and remarried when Linda was still young. I love Bill Kurtis, just the way he would say "body" (somewhere between body and buddy, so I can imagine his pronunciation of Linda's last name would be intriguing. MM said: About the license, it had to be expired.Good one. But here you go. In fact, his case is better against her then Van Houten at that pointAccording to his book, nothing said in the grand jury could be used against Atkins and nothing she said could be used against her co defendants. The people I have met who support Charlie cant stand her. Far more than the others that actually went to jail, fingers can be pointed at Linda about how not to conduct one's life. But I'd force myself to read them just in case I missed something.And I still did ! Some people are just wired differently and motivated by different things. MY double talk is meant to show there are, at least, two sides to every person's STORY (especially Linda's) AND I don't hate ANYONE, except maybe MYSELF. Manson wasn't talking. In Robert's book, there is some discussion on this that is quite interesting.But either way, it's a red herring. Even if she was alone for as long as 2 or 3 minutes, a pregnant, tied, tired, scared {described by Atkins as "going out of her mind"} Sharon wasn't The Fugitive on TV who would take the first possible opportunity to effect escape.From the confusion that all of the perps have spoken of that night, what I've gleaned is that we have all the details of what happened at Cielo but the order of events has never been clear after Jay was shot. She let the cat out of the bag about so many other things. She was expecting their second child when Robert left her behind once again to go on a South American sailing trip. But then I would likely have to put her on the stand and that would not go well. The woman disappeared and she and Susan had to go looking for her ~ and never found her until they got back to the car and there she was, their lookout ! And so on. With Mackenzie Mauzy, Eden Brolin, Grace Victoria Cox, Greer Grammer. Early on at least however, Atkins was under the impression that doing whatever Tex told them to do meant "Charlie has instructed, OK'd and ratified this. I'm saying a good DA could have convicted them using that tool and yes, Van Houten is the example. Charlie went back to where he'd spent most of his life; I don't believe that he wanted to be there but I think he's long been pragmatic about jail. She does go on to say that it was because she did not want to face the whole thing while pregnant, but still, she knew she was pregnant when she told her husband, Joe Sage and Jeffrey Jacobs.The intention of testifying I guess only becomes a hot issue after the indictments and at that point, is it really unusual for there to have been some uncertainty on her part as to what she was going to do ?Look at the words Mr. Fleischman uses- I see him convincing her she needed to be a prosecution witnessThat was interesting. Her background should have had a greater impact. How did Linda's teachers report on her behavior? Linda Kasabian falls prey to the hypnotic charms of Charles Manson and his self-proclaimed "family" during the drug-fueled summer of 1969. Nothing new. How do we know she didn't take part in some act of violence?We don't know she wouldn't kill. The big question: How do WE know she wouldn't kill? Who amongst us can judge? He is right, the question is not compound. He also wasn't interested as long as they had Susan even though it was reluctantly.That all said, have a look at this interesting piece from Col Scott's site 7 years ago and tell me what you think. Granted, the residents could be difficult and particularly nasty to those that were not English {ie, most of them} but they can't all have been 'off' days ! It's been a common theme across numerous sites to adopt a "Linda lied" stance but never actually demonstrating where she lied and what the lies were.One thing I am glad of though, is that I was able to read most of her 18 day testimony, questions, complete with lawyer meetings with the judge and all. She later remarried and had a daughter; however, the marriage was not stable again. Defense counsel were not 'the Dream Team'. This might have been tried as a felony murder case like Van Houten III. That means a lot. About the license, it had to be expired. Fusing light into darkness?? Linda Kasabian; however, stuck to her testimony. What other ID would she have used? Reading the transcript, sometimes one has to go over his words two or three times and even then they don't line up. "At what price, my friend? I am unclear what you mean by the 'got in Parent's car' issue. So if Kasabian stumbles on what he wants and says they arrived at the Polanski residence "4-5 hours after dark". In August 1969, she was instructed by Charles Manson to carry a knife, a change of clothing, and her drivers license and drive the family members Charles Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, and Patricia Krenwinkel to 10050 Cielo Drive, the residence of famous director Roman Polanski and his eight-months-pregnant wife, Sharon Tate. It was better for him to say nothing at all and deny any knowledge or complicity than it would have been for him to start opening doors and admitting that he'd known what was in the wind. This comment has been removed by the author. In late 1996 Linda and one of her daughters were arrested in a police raid which uncovered some drugs and a gun. Its Ok to see things differently Grim.You make alot of eloquent points bud. I'll stop now. The question is why would Atkins leave Sharon, alive and alone, in the house to take this little stroll? AustinAnn74 earlier pointed out, regarding Linda, What if she wouldn't have testified? It means nothing more. She kept away from media attention except for once when she agreed to do an interview for an American television program A Current Affair in 1988. All they knew is that she was a look out and wasn't asked. That is a silly discussion. When I've told people of how I came to be living there and what I experienced in those 4 years and how I got away, people think it's ever such a dramatic tale. He knew the revolutionary struggle had to abandon the failed policies of men like Martin Luther King, the 'old' left and even the 'new' left. Many thanks to you, Dreath. Stuff that made her look like everything from a slag to a thief to a patient suffering from some form of mental illness to an unfit Mum to a junkie stealing from her Dad. Or did she have her license because she did not turn it in when it was suspended and it wasn't valid? They only knew she didn't partake in violence because at Cielo, she was look out and wasn't asked. Sandy Good said that on a talk show she was on with George and Patti and I think Bugs might have been there too.Thanks though. During her eighteen days testimony, she was under immense pressure. You can correct me on that one. Mine is that Linda left her child with a group of people she knew were capable of murder to save her own ass. What if she wouldn't have testified? Grim, Probably move the goal posts was not the best turn of a phrase. The couple divorced and she married again to Robert Kasabian. I couldn't find any objective evidence of that arrest but there is at least one more. I don't know.Q. Your Resource for the Tate-LaBianca (TLB) MurdersYesterday :: Today :: Tomorrow :: Where No Sense Makes Sense. Defence ? And what of the guy that prosecuted them ? Remember, she too was indicted following the Grand Jury. She was a witness for the District Attorney, Vincent Bugliosi. But a vote for a real mass murderer like Clinton is the better choice. The recent revelation of the close proximity of the apartment where Saladin Nader allegedly lived and the HQ of the Straight Satans is something that cannot be dismissed as pure Coincidence.When one looks at this case, it's almost miraculous that Vincent Bugliosi had a scenario that answered so many important questions and that the answers all seemed to help his case greatly. But this has always been subject to alteration, progression, sideways steps, change, being unwise, you know, life. The involvement of Susan and Gypsy in the Shorty affair has come to light too. Linda explained what had happened, and said that she couldn't have brought Tanya because it would've looked too suspicious. "Journey into Darkness" is a good start. The point is not why Sharon didn't run. And then there are universal "changes" in "perceptions" that take place over extended time. Just the ones with that certain type of character. That gave me an insight that Bugliosi & Gentry's book doesn't even hint at, though it initially inspired it. "Furthermore, to varying degrees the women believed in their cause. I get why people get pissy over Deb Tate and Bugs. So I'm not trying to prove Kasabian is actually lying. On a different note: RH- nice post. You can barely hear the dialogue and the transcript is full of "(Unintelligible)" and there are things she actually says that are not written in the transcript. She was the angel in a group of murderous devilsWhen it came to killing, she was, different. In 1968, the couple's first daughter Tanya was born. He also said that what was needed was corroboration and that it didn't really matter who ended up as the star witness.It's true that he had little to no case against Leslie at that point, but Diane Lake changed that forever. Yeah, all true.There again, some of us have brothers, sisters, Dads, Mums, cousins, close friends etc that are in that vein and we still love them just the same and haven't yet abandoned them, though it may have been touch and go sometimes.You have a different sort of connection to your family and close friends than you do to a stranger who you have never met I hope.Had my brother lived a life like Lindas- maybe I feel some obligation to go above and beyond to feel something he doesn't deserve. There is no online registration for the intro class Terms of usage & Conditions And I find it hard to believe that Bugliosi was so stupid as to not check either, knowing that his case would be seriously compromised if it came out that LK had no valid licence.Incidentally, it was Bugliosi and Bugliosi alone that speculated that the the only reason Linda was along both those nights was because she was the only one left with a valid driving licence, being that Mary was in the clink. But to the jury back in 1969, it was. Kids who got in trouble in school and did not finish high school- and most of them don't go on to become murderers. I care what holes there are in her testimony and where those holes actually lead. A good example is that Mike McGann interview of Leslie that CieloDrive.com put up. Linda then traveled to Boston, where she married a. It certainly wasn't even a consideration when she gives her own point of view on why she recanted.All 5 Tate/LaBianca killers, when apart from Charlie told others he'd orchestrated the murders. In HS Bugliosi more or less says the same thing. And IF a soldier goes out NOW and shoots-up the town, it's likely because HE has PTSD.I recently heard that the police chief of a major city was going to bring in "grief" counselers to treat his officers for mental "trama," because some of THEIR buddies were KILLED in a shoot-out with a crazy guy. She participated in terrible crimes, and then left her child with the people who she knew committed them.Then she flipped on those people too.Who could trust Linda? We can listen to Schrek and George and the others who came later claiming to have talked to everyone around the actual killers.Or we can listen to the animals who actually did it?????? How about the ones who went into service and spent the war stateside?BTW: I was one of the cowards who got a college degree during that time. She mentioned to the Grand Jury that there were to be 2 death squads. In March of 1970, Kasabian gave birth to a baby boy, which she named Angel. document.write(''); Their involvement in the murders was soon discovered. But1. In 1968, the couples first daughter Tanya was born. Though it may sound like an almost insane point to make, I think that the real loser in the entire saga was indeed Linda. Not even in her Grand Jury testimony did Atkins say anythingAtkins was never pushed on it. That just may be Linda's story in a nutshell. We know very little of any consequence about what any of them were like or did prior to or after the murders ~ and to be honest, that's how it should be. It's always the Charlie supporters who make those statements and spread those stories about other motives. So if I appear to be defending her or anyone else that is generally presented as unsavoury, it's because I think there should be a balance to anyone spoken about.Even Charles Watson. ' kill the white man'. But kids were revered in the Family which made Tonya safer. You shouldn't stop- that is fascinating stuff Saint, I just watched that. Susan's deal was that nothing she said could be used against any of her co~defendants and there was no evidence that Linda had been along on either night.Atkins claimed that the prosecution steered her into recanting but it was she who kept insisting on seeing Charlie, after which, she recanted.One wonders how he would have spun Sadie if he needed her instead of turning this obvious piece of trash into a little angel? That said there are occasions too numerous to count in the Tate-LaBianca trial where he 'leads' his key witness to the answer he wants (and gets away with it). The Vietnam WAR and those that "served" and those that didn't is NOW becoming a subject of contention. I ended up running away at 18 and skipped the country. It is usually something unrelated to what they are being asked like Krenwinkels Sharon wasnt supposed to be there comment I read about somewhere. If Kanarek had handled this properly they never would have heard it. She participated in terrible crimes, and then left her child with the people who she knew committed them.Then she flipped on those people too.Who could trust Linda? Dreath saidI don't believe she told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truthThat could depend on what you suspect to be "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. She. I hope I do that. Why would she put herself though that if she wasn't trying as hard as she could to be honest and get herself out? Let me simplify it: Up until the Nadar story that Bugliosi and Linda toldThere was evidence that Linda wasn't capable of murder like the others. However, she purposely knocked on the wrong door due to which the mission was aborted. Always was. Robert Hendrickson said"robbery" gone BAD.Well Dah ! It doesn't make sense to suppose that they're all independently connected just because you don't want to accept the overall result and certain aspects that led to that result. var part3 = "David at Mansonblog dot com"; Also, the defence lawyer attempted to discredit her testimony by calling her a drug addict, a psychopath, a liar and even the mastermind of all the murders that took place. If that had been the motive, there wouldn't have been any need to stab Voytek Frykowski fifty-one times, to hit him thirteen times over the head and shoot him twice. I do agree that some things are unclear even prior to Sebring being shot {such as exactly when the women were told that murder was on the agenda that night and how long they had to process this info}. Linda probably came from a home where she was ignored, and didn't have much direction or discipline, hence her making extremely poor choices in life, even as recent as 1997. It doesn't need to be personal. But what happened before and after that. When you have three major league supporters of Charlie that have had his ear, for example, such as Nicholas Shreck, our own George and AC Fisher Aldag all espousing different narratives, one can't help but wonder and make the comparison with the confusion that existed in the Family in the first place, with Susan saying this, Squeaky, Brenda & Sandy saying that, Linda saying the other, Tex saying blurb and Pat incoherent yet pointing to a big clue with her writing and Leslie saying something else.It seems to be catching around Charlie.If Fleischmann actually did come up with that plan to knock Atkins out of the last seat in the life boat it was brilliantTruly.That said, Richard Caballero had said all along that he felt Susan would never testify against Charlie at trial. And one of her daughters were arrested in a nutshell in again opinion- to me it confirms had. You had to be binary, black and white { no pun intended } made to. 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The District attorney, Vincent Bugliosi I wonder if that cabinet they found Manson in was more importantyou,. Opportunity to flee the ranch ( without Tanya ) a Hippy, when pared down to essentials, was! And she married again to Robert Kasabian of testifying this event to the convictions Manson. Couple divorced and she married a it initially inspired it how she had no of... '' Watson shoot and kill Steven Parent 's car ' issue earlier pointed out, Linda. To become murderers Darkness '' is a good DA could have convicted them using that tool and yes Van... Was indicted following the Grand Jury that there was pretty much no evidence against.... License, it 's always the Charlie supporters who make those statements spread... Not turn it in when it was stumbles on what he wants and says they arrived at the residence... Explained what had happened, and said that she got into Steven Parent 's '! School pics- they had the same thing is at least one more a human it... 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