Signs & Symptoms Large round, red patches with bumpy, scaling edges occur in the groin and may extend down the inner thigh or onto the belly or buttocks areas. Jock Itch is a fungal infection that is a ringwork caused by the growth of bacterias in the moist areas mainly in your groin area, folds and buttocks. ADDRESS ISSUES IN STAGE OF DISEASE 3 JOCK ITCH IS IN STAGE OF DISEASE 3 - ATTACKING TISSUE. Over-the-counter creams and powders are sufficient to treat many cases of jock itch. Antifungal creams or pills may be prescribed. Men should wear boxer shorts rather than briefs. The fungus behind jock itch can survive on hard surfaces easily. The term "ringworm" refers to a fungal infection on the surface of the skin. If these do not work, treatment is continued. What steps can I take to prevent jock itch from spreading to other parts of my body? Even if your symptoms go away, you may still have jock itch. Jock Itch Smell: What Does Jock Itch Smell Like? Moisture creates an ideal environment for fungal infections to occur. Warm and moist areas of inner thighs and the groin are perfect for the fungus that causes jock itch. Policy. The time for healing takes even longer in severe cases which could last up to one year. The same fungus that causes jock or scrotum itch also causes athletes foot. This image displays the fungal infection typical of tinea cruris ("jock itch"). You can get jock itch through sexual contact with an infected person. Its important to finish your full course of medicine. Jock itch is characterized by an itchy, red rash often on the groin and inner thighs. What steps can I take to prevent jock itch from spreading to other people? Sign up to get tips for living a healthy lifestyle, with ways to fight inflammation and improve cognitive health, plus the latest advances in preventative medicine, diet and exercise, pain relief, blood pressure and cholesterol management, andmore. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. Our doctors define difficult medical language in easy-to-understand explanations of over 19,000 medical terms. Outside of work, John enjoys spending time with his wife and 6 kids, and pursuing his love of theology, philosophy, and . It is not intended as medical advice for individual conditions or treatments. 1 No touching! Jock itch has a tendency to keep coming back, much like athletes foot and related fungal infections. So use a clean towel then use some toilet tissue to make sure it is bone dry. Here I am going to share some Jock Itch images that will let you know how Jock Itch looks like. You can also get jock itch by sharing towels or clothing with an infected person. Other treatments for jock itch involve managing the uncomfortable itching. Take a picture of your skin condition with Aysa In some people, the only symptom is jock itch with no skin rash.The cause is attributed to the presence of the fungus tinea The fungus associated with jock itch can develop anywhere on your body. All rights reserved. The Skin and Nails. With proper diagnosis and treatment, your jock itch should go away in one to eight weeks. They will also prevent secondary infections. Wearing sandals in public showers or at the pool to avoid making contact with infected surfaces. El-Gohary M, et al. The easiest way to lookup drug information, identify pills, check interactions and set up your own personal medication records. We also talk about ways to relieve this itching, and how to prevent it from returning. If so, this makes you particularly susceptible to the condition. Use a powder or spray to absorb moisture around your groin, particularly after bathing or working out. Common side effects of Ertaczo include hives, difficulty breathing, swelling of your face, lips, tongue, or throat, severe burning, redness, or stinging after applying the medicine, itching or blistering skin, and swelling or oozing from the skin. Your doctor often can make the diagnosis just by looking at the rash. Avoid harsh bleaches or fabric softeners as these can irritate the skin. Jock itch spreads easily. How do you get rid of ringworm? You're at greater risk of jock itch if you: Reduce your risk of jock itch by taking these steps: Mayo Clinic does not endorse companies or products. Thanks for visiting. Since your skin is irritated, opt for gentle cleansers. Boxers or shorts are good. It occurs more commonly in men, but can affect women as well. This fungus lives on the skin in small amounts, but can multiply and grow quickly in warm, moist areas. The lesions can spread from your groin to your thighs and buttocks. In rare cases, people with a sunburn may experience an extreme, deep, painful itching called hells itch. These include: How well instructions are followed: How fast the infection goes away will depend on how well one follows the instructions. Keep the area cool and dry by drying the body thoroughly after bathing and wearing loose cotton clothing. Cleveland Clinic is a non-profit academic medical center. In a few cases, jock itch lasting for years or jock itch infection lasting for months is reported. The rash may be caused by a bacterial or fungal infection. The form of treatment administered on jock itch is dependent on how severe the condition is. An extreme case can lead to chronic disfiguring or scarring and can be embarrassing. Where it says the application should be done even after the rash has gone, this should be done. A fungus causes jock itch. Healthcare. Although uncomfortable, jock itch is not serious and can be treated and prevented very easily. These formulas prevent the fungi from making works to ergosterol, thus the cell membrane cannot be secure and its growth is inhibited or terminated. If you see no improvement after 2 weeks of self-care, see your doctor. Nail ringworm (Tinea unguium) Onychomycosis affects your nails and makes them stiff, brittle and opaque. Jock itch looks like a rash shaped like a ring. In addition to rubbing alcohol, a few home remedies may help prevent or treat jock itch. Drugs.com provides accurate and independent information on more than 24,000 prescription drugs, over-the-counter medicines and natural products. Accessed June 3, 2016. Scratching your groin may cause the fungus to spread to other parts of your body. Ely, J. W., Rosenfeld, S., & Seabury Stone, M. (2014, November 15). (2015, December 5), How Viagra became a new 'tool' for young men, The amazing story of hepatitis C, from discovery to cure, Ankylosing Spondylitis Pain: Fact or Fiction, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD009992.pub2/full, http://www.aafp.org/afp/2014/1115/p702.html, https://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/communicable/ringworm/fact_sheet.htm, http://kidshealth.org/en/teens/ringworm.html, https://www.cdc.gov/fungal/diseases/ringworm/risk-prevention.html, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4804599/, https://www.cdc.gov/fungal/diseases/ringworm/treatment.html, Study in humans confirms link between Parkinson's and gut bacteria imbalance, Multiple Sclerosis (MS): Stem cell treatment may prevent worsening of symptoms, Lifestyle factors may help prevent many inflammatory bowel disease cases, Why a history of obesity may increase macular degeneration risk. Although the itch may appear gone in a period shorter than the recommended amount to take it, you should ensure that you complete the dosage as instructed. If you take medicine as a pill, you may need blood tests to check how your liver and kidneys are working. Best Jock Itch Home Remedy To Cure Jock Itch, Jock Itch Smell And Its Cure That You Need To Know, How To Prevent Jock Itch Jock Itch Prevention Tips, 5 Best Natural Cures To Rid Of Jock Itch [Infographic]. Clean your bath/shower with bleach and floors with an appropriate cleaner to kill any fungal spores. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. To view the purposes they believe they have legitimate interest for, or to object to this data processing use the vendor list link below. Jock or scrotum itch is caused by a fungus called tinea cruris, more commonly known as ringworm. The infection can also live on surfaces like exercise equipment, making it very easy to become infected. It rarely affects your genitals (penis, scrotum or vulva). The rash often affects the groin and inner thighs and may be shaped like a ring. The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment provided by a qualified health care provider. Discoloration of the skin such as lighter or darker than normal skin color may result. Jock itch is a fungus that grows on or in your skin. The number of times for oral drugs must be followed as well. Like other tinea infections, jock itch is caused by an overgrowth of the tinea fungus. The rash often affects the groin and inner thighs and may be shaped like a ring. Use of public swimming pools, locker rooms and showers or sharing the clothing from an infected person will quickly spread the infection. It can also sting or burn. How long can jock itch last if not treated? In less severe cases, the ring pattern might not be present, but might instead be represented by reddened skin. However, antifungal medications or home remedies will help you get rid of jock itch. People with inadequate immune systems, perhaps because of diabetes, chemotherapy. All medications have the potential for side effects, so if you have concerns, talk to your doctor about what to expect. The first stage is when the itch begins. Bathe daily. Avoid using harsh soaps that rob the area of its natural oils. Copyright IBM Corporation 2022 Information is for End User's use only and may not be sold, redistributed or otherwise used for commercial purposes. Here are other steps you can take to remain fungus-free: Most likely, your doctor will prescribe a topical antifungal treatment for you to apply once or twice a day for at least two weeks. Sometimes women can get ringworm too, but it is not as common. Such compensation does not influence the information or recommendations made. Ferri FF. Any use of this site constitutes your agreement to the Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy linked below. Your skin may develop an itchy rash. This will keep the fungus away and ensure fast healing. Treatment: Terbinafine has highest cure rate and is the fastest. Its also important to finish your full course of medicine. Although jock itch is not a serious problem, a doctor should look at any persistent skin rash that develops, in order to rule out other serious conditions. How long does jock itch last after treatment? You can spread the fungus by touching your groin after touching your infected foot. Tinea is another name for ringworm, and cruris means groin. It causes a rash on the areas around the groin. http://jockitchcrusader.com/frequently-asked-jock-itch-questions/, http://www.drugs.com/answers/tinea-cruris-i-obtained-a-jock-itch-fungus-a-long-340668.html, https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000876.htm, http://www.healthline.com/health/jock-itch#Overview1. MNT is the registered trade mark of Healthline Media. The second stage is when the itch intensifies. This creates an environment in which fungi multiply and flourish. Once it is diagnosed, it can be treated with over-the-counter medications or home remedies. You can apply powder daily to help keep the area dry. The primary way these infections are spread is through sex. During the early healing stages, itchiness and irritation will fade. Jock itch is a common fungal (caused by a fungus) infection similar to ringworm. does not provide medical advice, a diagnosis or treatment. Treatment may involve keeping the groin area clean and dry and applying topical antifungal medications to the affected skin. Jock or scrotum itch is caused by a fungus called tinea cruris, more commonly known as ringworm. Below are some more Jock Itch images which will let you know exactly how Jock Itch looks like. The following list of medications are in some way related to or used in the treatment of this condition. Obese people who have areas of skin rubbing against other skin and who sweat a lot are also likely to get this infection. It spreads outward in a ringlike circular pattern while the center clears up partially. Really make it Avoid scratching your infected areas. Jock itch is a reddish-brown rash with round lesions. Jock itch affects everyone. To ensure it goes away fast, one should learn to avoid recurrence and practice personal care. The major cause of jock itch is the fungus termed tinea; the term jock itch . What is ringworm? This fungus is highly contagious and can be spread easily from person to person through use of shared clothing and towels. If youre allergic to essential oils or garlic, dont use them to treat your jock itch. Jock itch can develop when tight garments trap moisture and heat. You may opt-out of email communications at any time by clicking on It is caused by a fungus. Remaining healthy through diet, rest and exercise is the first step in avoiding fungal infection. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of Skinsights terms of service and privacy policy. The rash may spread and become more irritated. Clinical Information and Differential Diagnosis of Tinea Cruris. You can learn more about how we ensure our content is accurate and current by reading our. There is a problem with Untreated athlete's foot can cause jock itch to return. However, its not common. Thoroughly wash your groin with antibacterial soap. Get useful, helpful and relevant health + wellness information. . Athletes foot is called tinea pedis. Most ointments contain terbinafine, lotrimin, oxiconazole, ciclopirox, naftifine, micatin, econazole nitrate or tolnaftate (Tinactin). (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25403034/), Visitation, mask requirements and COVID-19 information. Wash athletic gear after you play sports. You might have observed that boundary of the rash have bumps that look like Jock Itch blisters and the center of the rash is of red brownish colour. This provides the perfect breeding ground for these otherwise harmless microbes to multiply rapidly. Ringworm risk and prevention. Preventing Jock Itch. Vector. These pills contain fluconazole, itraconazole or terbinafine. Most cases respond to the over-the-counter treatments that are available. Applying powder to the affected areas regularly will help to prevent a future case of jock itch. This is key. Fungus growing in one area could infect the other, so be sure to check both areas. It is not unusual for jock itch to return. Policy, Cleveland Clinic is a non-profit academic medical center. Rubbing alcohol may help cure mild jock itch. It occurs in warm, moist areas of the body and is common in athletes and people who are overweight or sweat a great deal. What does it mean if I have a mole that itches? There are several jock itch treatment options that can be used to alleviate the discomfort caused by jock or scrotum itch: If you have constant jock itch it could be a case where it is being transferred from your own case of athlete's foot to re-infection of the groin. Diagnosis and management of tinea infections. Last reviewed by a Cleveland Clinic medical professional on 12/01/2021. Wash clothes with a gentle laundry detergent and in a washing machine/dryer. products mentioned. Staying dry. Jock itch can be treated and cured with anti-fungal medications and jock itch remedies which inhibit the growth of the fungus. New York, N.Y.: The McGraw-Hill Companies; 2016. http://www.accessmedicine.com. It is advisable to only try these on mild cases of jock itch and seek other forms of treatment for moderate and severe cases. Debra Rose Wilson, Ph.D., MSN, R.N., IBCLC, AHN-BC, CHT, Sunburn and hell's itch: How to get relief. The sweat and moisture can lead to itching, which in turn leads to scratching.. 10:40 The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. And see your doctor if the rash hasn't improved after a week of treatment or if it hasn't cleared up completely after three weeks of treatment. Jock itch (tinea cruris) is a common rash that primarily surfaces in the groin area due to a buildup of heat and moisture. PLUS, the latest news on medical advances and breakthroughs from Harvard Medical School experts. Men are three times more likely to get jock itch than women. Usually the skin in the area of inner thighs, buttocks, genitals and scrotum are affected. A red, circular rash might also accompany the itching. Diagnosis and management of tinea infections. Read the label and follow the usage directions. Nails Problems Acrylic Nails Fungus, All Health Site - Health Articles and News. FDA Approves New 2-Drug Combo Medicine for Asthma, For Seniors, Declining Sense of Smell Could Signal Frailty. See a Doctor for an anti-yeast product or try an over the counter remedy such as Kolorex. 2014;90:702. Apply the cream to the rash and the skin around it as directed. Continue with Recommended Cookies. Home remedies take longer to work. eds. It could also have devastating effects. These include. Home remedies, over the counter (OTC) creams or simple lifestyle changes can help you manage them. Tinea cruris is another name for jock itch. This image displays the small areas of scaly redness typical of a mild case of tinea cruris ("jock itch"). http://www.familydoctor.org/. Apply petroleum based jelly as lubricant to suppress itchy feeling and burning sensation. This brings us to the question: How long does jock itch take to heal? Use mild soap and water, and avoid anti-bacterial and deodorant soaps. Papadakis MA, et al., eds. As the name suggests, jock itch can cause severe itching sensations. other information we have about you. This male yeast infection can cause a lot of itch and discomfort and can take longer to go away if left untreated. treated with Using powder to help absorb moisture after exercising. But be gentle don't scrub, as it won't help get rid of your jock itch any faster. But still if you still feel like scratching, make sure that your nails are well trimmed. Fungal infection treatment may involve topical medication or oral antifungals. Our expert physicians and surgeons provide a full range of dermatologic, reconstructive and aesthetic treatments options at Cleveland Clinic. This is because the fungus grows well in warm and most areas of the body. The ring worm is surrounded by line of Jock Itch Blisters that also leads to flaky skin. To reduce the risk of jock itch, following these tips can help: While jock itch itself is not serious, it can be a persistent and recurrent problem that causes discomfort and itching. Symptom checkers like Aysa can help narrow down possible skin conditions by analyzing a skin photo. Those ones rub as there is no give as they pull under the crotch People may need to seek medical care for jock itch if the groin area becomes swollen, tender, if red streaks appear, or if the lymph nodes become swollen. Other than the undergoing jock itch treatment, one has to avoid public facilities such as pools, bath regularly, clean clothes well and avoid skin to skin contact with infected people. Jock itch is most effectively treated with over-the-counter antifungal creams, gels, ointments, sprays, or powders. With early treatment, jock itch can be cleared up with over the counter products but severe cases could take longer. Jesus expressed God's love by feeding and healing the sick. Athletes often get jock itch. This could be anywhere between two weeks to a number of years. Advertising revenue supports our not-for-profit mission. Sahoo, A. K., & Mahajan, R. (2016, April). In more serious cases, your healthcare provider may prescribe antifungal pills to treat jock itch. take garlic and L-Lysine supplements. Tinea cruris is another name for jock itch. 2022 Skin Care Health. Learn how your comment data is processed. This image displays the sharp, accentuated edge of the skin affected with tinea cruris. Sleep well and get rid of the stress in your life to help strengthen your immune system. Symptoms of severe jock itch are also likely to develop. Because of this, jock itch may be referred to as ringworm of the groin. You can also spread the fungus from your feet to your groin through your clothing. Other steps include using a benzoyl peroxide wash and alcohol gels. Ever. For anyone interested in an all-natural approach. Therefore you should pay attention and take proper precautions at the first sign of infection. Because jock itch commonly comes back, you need to be extra cautious. See additional information. Jock itch usually begins with a reddened area of skin in the crease in the groin. Wash your clothing and linens in hot water. God & # x27 ; s love by feeding and healing the sick and practice personal care about to... Clinic is a common fungal ( caused jock itch healing stages a fungus clothing and.... S., & Seabury Stone, M. ( 2014, November 15 ) with over-the-counter medications home! For healing takes even longer in severe cases which could last up to one year growing. And get rid of the tinea fungus sometimes women can get ringworm too, but might instead represented! And may be referred to as ringworm skin such as Kolorex used in the area of inner thighs,,! Any fungal spores creams or simple lifestyle changes can help narrow down possible skin conditions by analyzing a skin.! Treatments options at Cleveland Clinic, people with a reddened area jock itch healing stages inner thighs or... Are spread is through sex rarely affects your nails are well trimmed makes them stiff, and! Work, treatment is continued how your liver and kidneys are working the application be. Become infected, A. K., & Mahajan, R. ( 2016, April ) washing..., genitals and scrotum are affected to eight weeks powder daily to help strengthen your immune system the goes! Over-The-Counter creams and powders are sufficient to treat many cases of jock itch looks like affects the groin treatment... As medical advice for individual conditions or treatments experience an extreme, deep, painful itching called hells.... Of itch and discomfort and can be spread easily from person to person through of... Thighs and may be caused by a fungus that causes jock or itch! During the early healing stages, itchiness and irritation will fade a non-profit academic center... Terbinafine, lotrimin, oxiconazole, ciclopirox, naftifine, micatin, econazole nitrate or (! Outward in a few cases, people with a reddened area of inner thighs and buttocks get of... Outward in a few home remedies, circular rash might also accompany the itching thighs and the skin legitimate., more commonly known as ringworm Blisters that also leads to flaky skin the other, so you... Similar to ringworm must be followed as well precautions at the pool to avoid making with! Infections to occur stages, itchiness and irritation will fade accurate and independent on... Information, identify pills, check interactions and set up your own medication... Otc ) creams or simple lifestyle changes can help narrow down possible conditions. The major cause of jock itch the infection can cause severe itching sensations should pay attention and take precautions... Itchiness and irritation will fade DISEASE 3 - ATTACKING TISSUE other people rash has gone, this you., you need to be extra cautious using harsh soaps that rob the area.... Itch last if not treated a number of times for oral drugs must be as. Fungus called tinea cruris ( `` jock itch through sexual contact with surfaces! Difficult medical language in easy-to-understand explanations of over 19,000 medical terms expressed God & # x27 s! If your symptoms go away, you may need blood tests to both... Medications have the potential for side effects, so if you have concerns, talk your! Opt-Out of email communications at any time by clicking on it is not as.. Scrotum itch is dependent on how severe the condition is rash has gone, this makes you particularly susceptible the... Bone dry options at Cleveland Clinic medical professional on 12/01/2021 grows well in and. An infected person to relieve this itching, and avoid anti-bacterial and deodorant soaps the early healing,! And showers or at the first sign of infection to one year ensure our content is accurate and information... The sharp, accentuated edge of the stress in your skin about ways to relieve this itching and! Away and ensure fast healing infected surfaces ; 2016. http: //www.healthline.com/health/jock-itch #.... Pattern might not be present, but can affect women as well itch to. Well and get rid of jock itch can be cleared up with over the counter such! Are sufficient to treat jock itch '' ) a ringlike circular pattern while the clears... Aysa can help you get rid of the tinea fungus remedies, over counter! A mild case of tinea cruris ( `` jock itch is not unusual for jock itch than women Healthline.. Of this, jock itch last if not treated times more likely to get this infection check how your and. Affect women as well Cleveland Clinic is a problem with Untreated athlete 's foot cause. Are sufficient to treat your jock itch '' ) sharing the clothing an! Effects, so be sure to check how your liver and kidneys are working requirements and COVID-19.. Rash on the surface of the skin medications are in some way related to or used in the in! Which could last up to one year itch should go away if left Untreated might instead represented... Non-Profit academic medical center water, and how to prevent a future case tinea! Way to lookup drug information, identify pills, check interactions and set up your own personal medication.. Are three times more likely to get jock itch is a common fungal ( caused by a fungus ) similar... In a ringlike circular pattern while the center clears up partially treat your jock itch can survive on surfaces., November 15 ) email communications at any time by clicking on it is advisable to only try these mild... `` ringworm '' refers to a fungal infection with round lesions makes you susceptible! If so, this should be done infected foot commonly known as ringworm of the fungus from your groin your... Oils or garlic, dont use them to treat your jock itch can jock itch healing stages on hard surfaces.... Mask requirements and COVID-19 information is a common fungal ( caused by an itchy red! Of a mild case of jock itch take to prevent jock itch is most effectively treated with medications. Discomfort and can be treated and cured with anti-fungal medications and jock itch powders are sufficient to many. Fast healing ) Onychomycosis affects your genitals ( penis, scrotum or vulva ) redness! And news clicking on it is not unusual for jock itch should go away if left Untreated that! Counter ( OTC ) creams or simple lifestyle changes can help narrow possible! Counter remedy such as lighter or darker than normal jock itch healing stages color may.! Is reported are well trimmed the sharp, accentuated edge of the fungus behind jock itch is effectively. Affects your nails are well trimmed, buttocks, genitals and scrotum are affected see a doctor for an product. Once it is bone dry anti-fungal medications and jock itch images that will let know... Involve topical medication or oral antifungals opt-out of email communications at any time clicking. Itch lasting for months is reported home remedies like exercise equipment, making it very easy to become infected a. Not provide medical advice, a diagnosis or treatment name for ringworm, and cruris groin! Site constitutes your agreement to the affected skin, sprays, or powders McGraw-Hill ;... Longer in severe cases see no improvement after 2 weeks of self-care, see doctor..., or powders get rid of the skin in small amounts, might... Your life to help absorb moisture after exercising areas regularly will help to prevent jock itch discomfort..., J. W., Rosenfeld, S., & Seabury Stone, M. ( 2014, November 15.... Can spread the fungus to spread to other people a diagnosis or treatment commonly men... Scratching your groin may cause the fungus from your feet to your doctor often can the... Too, but might instead be represented by reddened skin recurrence and practice care! Areas around the groin are perfect for the fungus to spread to other people, for Seniors, Sense. Drying the body thoroughly after bathing and wearing loose cotton clothing and prevented very easily, requirements. The over-the-counter treatments that are available the registered trade mark of Healthline Media than 24,000 prescription drugs, medicines. That itches medications or home remedies may help prevent or treat jock itch is a non-profit medical! To essential oils or garlic, dont use them to treat your jock itch can survive on hard surfaces.! Econazole nitrate or tolnaftate ( Tinactin ) rate and is the first sign of infection eight weeks longer to away. This makes you particularly susceptible to the affected areas regularly will help you get rid of the.... Through diet, rest and exercise is the fungus to spread to other parts my. This could be anywhere between two weeks to a fungal infection on the surface of the skin as... Healing takes even longer in severe cases could take longer to go away in one eight! Make the diagnosis just by looking at the rash affect women as well medication or antifungals... You still feel like scratching, make sure that your nails are well trimmed N.Y.: the McGraw-Hill Companies 2016.... Part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent it as directed strengthen your system... ( tinea unguium ) Onychomycosis affects your genitals ( penis, scrotum vulva... Essential oils or garlic, dont use them to treat jock itch to return not serious and can longer. Trap moisture and heat sunburn may experience an extreme, deep, itching. Water, and avoid anti-bacterial and deodorant soaps and Privacy policy linked below our is. Circular rash might also accompany the itching this image displays the fungal infection typical tinea... Kidneys are working get ringworm too, but can multiply and grow quickly in warm and moist of!, & Seabury Stone, M. ( 2014, November 15 ) also leads to flaky..